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Professor Barbara Rogoff – Learning through Pitching In

Professor Barbara Rogoff – Learning through Pitching In

[BLANK_AUDIO] Okay, welcome. Technology of use aside. I’d like to welcome you to the third and final Distinguished Educational Thinkers
talk of this academic year. These talks are sponsored by
the Graduate Group of Education, the School of Education, and the School
of Education Alumni Annual Fund. And they provided us a wonderful
opportunity to hear from scholars who aren’t resident in
UC Davis about their work and inform our own collective research and
scholarship. So we are very thrilled for
this talk today. And I’d like to introduce Prof. Lee Martin
who’s going to introduce our speaker.>>[APPLAUSE]
>>Thank you.>>Well, if you’ll permit me
to start with a non sequitur. One of the things that we know from
science education research is that people have a really hard time in
sorting certain misconceptions. And one of the hardest ones is when
we think of something as a substance, something like heat, when it’s actually,
scientists would tell us, is a process. So we think that heat is
something that an object has, and that maybe it slowly leaks away over time. Whereas physicists say no,
actually, heat is a process that arises through the interaction of billions
of molecules moving around in substance. And we too often do the same thing
when we’re studying human beings. We assume that things like intelligence or
motivation and perhaps those small culture
are substances that people can acquire and carry around with themselves
from place to place. And it turns out that making this error
leads to all sorts of problems for lots of people. And I mention this in introducing our
speaker tonight because I can think of no other scholar in psychology, distinguished is certainly
an apt adjective in this case. She is a Fellow at the Association for
Psychological Science, the American Anthropological Association,
the American Psychological Association, and the American Educational
Research Association. And I could go on and list her many accomplishments but
we do want to hear her speak tonight. Needless to say,
she has authored numerous publications, articles, chapters and books. And her work related to this idea of
culture as a process has really helped us to see culture as a process, one that
involves learning and development and interaction among people. And not only it helped us to see this but
has given us a suite of really powerful and empirically grounded tools for
making sense of culture as a process. And I would say that, give a little
plug for her most recent book, which is Developing Destinies,
which is an ethnography, a memoir, a research study on a Mayan midwife and
the town in which she lives and works. So it is a, she’s here with us today to
talk about Learning Through Pitching In. So please join me in welcoming Prof.
>>And thanks for that lovely introduction. You can see the book that
he was talking about. And I actually brought a copy along. And I’ll just pass it around. The business that Lee was starting out
was about, thinking about process. That book, that’s the main
underlying theme of the book is what’s the relation between individual and
cultural processes. So it uses a case study
of a Mayan woman and her town as a way of exploring that,
that’s what the book is about. This was just bold-face
promotion of the book.>>[LAUGH]
>>But I should say the proceeds go to
a learning center in a little Mayan town. So I’m promoting it on behalf of
the learning center, not my own pocket. What I’d like to speak about today
is a way of organizing learning that I have learned about
personally through my work for many years in a Mayan community in
the islands of Guatemala, but also in part through being a parent volunteer in
an innovative public elementary school. I learned the same lessons both places,
but it took me about ten years to
realize that I was doing so. The basic lesson is how to think about
learning as a collaborative process where children pitch in to activities
of importance in their community. I want to give you an idea
of what this looks like. The clip that I’m going to show
you here is not from my child, but a kid who has an opportunity to learn
by pitching in, observing and pitching in. Let me just play it for you. [BLANK_AUDIO] So the mouse goes to [INAUDIBLE]
>>Okay.>>We’re going to do it
[INAUDIBLE] Did you see the rose?>>Yeah.>>Well, I can do it this way [BLANK_AUDIO] [MUSIC]>>The final key to the sounds of
the glyphs would be found by David Stuart, whose-
>>I thought that would work.>>It must have [INAUDIBLE]. If I keep trying, maybe I’ll get it.>>Let me see if I can.>>Yeah, try [INAUDIBLE]
>>[INAUDIBLE] [CROSSTALK] [LAUGH]>>This is called collaborative learning.>>[LAUGH] [MUSIC]>>The final key to the sounds of
the glyphs would be found by David Stuart, whose education as a Mayanist
began at an early age. [MUSIC] His father, George, often brought him
along on field trips to Mesoamerica. [MUSIC]>>What really got me, though,
was while we were at Coba, there were a couple of mummies
that were actually discovered. My dad would drop everything and
work on drawing monuments. And I would just sort of look over
his shoulder while he was doing that. He notices, this is pretty amazing.>>He decided he would go
out draw some himself. So he’d take his crayons and paper and
everything and start drawing paraglyphs. [MUSIC]>>By the time we got back to the states,
my inner soul had been so effected by that experience that
I just wanted to keep going back. [MUSIC]>>Two years later,
George took David to meet Linda Schele.>>I remember at times sitting
there quietly in the office while she was drawing a glyph. And I don’t know why I blurted this out,
but I said, that’s a fire glyph. And Linda had paused, and I remember she
sort of looked behind her shoulder and over at me, and said,
yeah, you’re right kid. That’s a fire glyph.>>George said that they would really
appreciate it if there was ever a chance that David
could study by my side. So on the spur of the moment I said why
didn’t come down to Palenque this summer.>>She allowed me to help
her check her drawing. We were in the temples with flashlights,
with her drawings on clipboards, making corrections. [MUSIC]>>I gave him tablet [UNKNOWN],
told him to go out on the back porch, and figure out as much as he could about it. And he came back a couple days later and
had the same amount of structural understanding of the text that
had taken me three years. [LAUGH] And so I figured then
that he was really quite good. [BLANK_AUDIO]>>At age 12, David presented his first scholarly paper on Mayan hieroglyphs
>>And he gets a paper that was certainly beyond
the abilities of about two-thirds or three-quarters of the audience to follow. It was a scholarly paper.>>Then, after his high school graduation, Stewart-
>>Okay, so [BLANK_AUDIO] Some reflections on how his
learning was organized. Did you notice various aspects
of what characteristics went into David Stewart.being able to learn
about decoding Mayan hieroglyphics? What I want to be doing through my
talk is laying out what are some of the characteristics of
that kind of learning. I think you can probably call
in mind a few that you noticed. But the,
I’m going to show you a diagram that tries to define this kind of
learning in a few minutes. But before I do that I want to point out
that I think that this way of learning can apply to any subject matter it’s not
limited to particular kinds of learning. I showed in the example of
decoding hieroglyphics, in the Mayan community
the image from the first image shows a girl listening we’ve got
some other girls conversing. With the toddler reciting around the baby. Everybody I think all of us everywhere
learn our first language by pitching in, listening, pitching in. We want to be part of what’s going on or
we want to get access to something, we learn to use a tool that people around
us are using by observin pitching in. You can see these two little
girls in the background here, learning about weaving,
it just surrounds them. The sounds, the smells,
the sights of weaving. Soon they’ll be pitching in. Philosophical and spiritual matters,
these kids are present at a funereal. They have a chance to listen to what their
community thinks is the meaning of life. What happens when people die. How the whole thing works. Because they’re present and
they have a chance to listen in. And finally, here’s one example
of learning to use the computer. Back when computers came to our attention, many of us thought you had to use
a manual to learn how to use a computer. Nobody uses a manual now. They don’t even produce manuals. Those little help dialog things,
you can learn in the process of using it. Pretty need some information,
you turn to the help. The help menu, or you turn to the person
next to you, or you fiddle around. So, you’re learning by just using it for
some purpose. It’s not like learning outside
of the context of using it. And I would mention this is for the, we
went to high school with this girl here.>>[LAUGH]
>>Who is my daughter Louisa. She’s now a software engineer at Apple. And I don’t think she learned that
much from this particular episode.>>[LAUGH]
>>But she is learning something from it. Washington presidency is a little
bit computed which is new renovate, but she filming with a bunch of
friends after she finished college. She didn’t study anything
related to technology. And since we’re creating start up and
she said she would like to help up and they taught program in the process
of making something that worked. And so, powerful opinion and
program was through pitching in and is obviously learn very low
about to be and that money. So, my point on slide is not limited to
particular areas of this part of learning this way of instruction learning.. However, I think it’s much more common way
of search and learning and some community understanding other’s, and that’s going to
be central to what I’m talking about today, in communities where children
have the opportunity to be present. This is a very effective way to learn. Everything present this one
of the pre conditions for this, actually it’s the first facet
of the diagram I’m going to show you. The most, it’s a crucial
feature of learning this way. You have to be present. But, in some communities children
are often excluded from many of the activities in their communities. None of us were in that particular
setting, 1914 New Mexico, but I think we all recognize
its format in which exercises. And well, exercise is out of the context
of actually producing something are the substitute for actually being
involved in something productive. And I probably don’t have to remind
people in this group that the assembly line was an exclusive model for
this kind of instruction. Cover this administrative [INAUDIBLE]
textbook 1916 I think it was. Very explicitly layed out the parallels
of using assembly -ine the newly invented assembly-line from industry. The way of organizing education with
lots of immigrant kids hoping up here, compulsory schooling and
come home obviously. Lots of kids to deal with, we need the bureaucracy to
move them through the system. And the students would
go to row material and the product the teachers
with the technicians, and guess who were the experts telling
the technicians what to do, that’s us. It’s kind of weird to recognize
our role in this, but yes. But I want to point out that not all
schools are organized around assembly line instruction. I think this is very important. Schools for decades, centuries maybe, have use other ways of organizing this
beside assembly-line instruction. I think assembly-line instruction has
been shown to be very prevalent still, around the world. But, there’s a lot of schools that have
been trying to get away from that include the one that I mentioned earlier where
I spent time as a parent volunteer for ten years or so in my kids classrooms. And we ended up writing a book together, parents, teachers, kids,
and one administrator. On how we’ve learned to think
about a collaborative organization to learning in this innovative schools,
public elementary school, K through 6 in which the kids were collaborators
with each other and with the adults. The adults were collaborators
with the kids as well. They worked on projects that
the kids helped to develop that mattered to that little community. So, the way of organizing learning
in that school was similar to learning to attend community participation
learning by observing and pitching in. We can so, I am going to skip that,
that’s why let’s move on this one. Am I okay if I move away from
the microphone as far as As far as you’re concerned, if I don’t
speak loud enough tell me to speak up. So the central facet there is
the one that I mentioned earlier, the learning [UNKNOWN]
the learners incorporated and contributing to the family and
community, so it’s really simple. The second facet has to
do with the motives. The learner’s motive is to contribute,
to belong, to fulfill a role. The motive of the other people
is to accomplish something, to get something done and
maybe also to instruct the learner. What I’m going to be doing is filling out
this prism with some research examples. And I want to contrast it
also with a prism that tries to lay out the features of what
I’m calling assembly line instruction. But I want to remind you that this second
prism is not equivalent to schooling. It may be common in schools but I’m not
thinking about schools, I’m talking about assembly-line instruction when
I’m referring to this prism here. So in assembly-line instruction,
learning is supposedly occurring through controlled instruction in
a segregated setting and the motive is for learners to Seek extrinsic rewards,
and avoid threats. And the motives for other people are to
instruct, and also to sort the learners. If you guys have questions or
comments along the way, [BLANK_AUDIO] You can raise your hand, or otherwise blurt them out I wanted to
mention then the two prisms that I’m focusing on today are not the only
two ways of organizing learning and I think it would be to our advantage
if we could be more articulate about a variety of these alternatives
to assembly line instruction. [UNKNOWN] instruction, learning through
repetition instructional conversation, inquiry writing and many others. I think that if you were articulate about
the characters as alternatives, we would have a better chance of being able to get
beyond the assembly line instruction. Rather then just saying we don’t
put one assembly line instruction Let’s do something else. It would be helpful if we had some models
of some other things that we could do. I think that learning through
intent community participation is one very helpful model for that. And it has been practiced for many years in a number of
populations with great success. So I think it’s for us to learn from. [BLANK_AUDIO] The first study that really got me
involved in thinking this through was a study that looked at in those home
visits, two families in four communities. But I’m only going to be talking about
two today, middle class European American families in Salt Lake City and
Mayan families in San Pedro La Laguna, Guatemala, which is the same community
that that book is written about. We made home visits to a whole
bunch of families, and in the middle of the home visits we
brought out all the objects that are too difficult for
the toddlers to operate on their own. And we’d hand them to mother, and as
the mother to help the child operate them, with children who were
12 to 24 months old. And these were too difficult for
the children to do on their own, and we told the mothers that,
and to please help the children. And then we looked to
see how the mothers and children interacted in
the different cultural settings and what we noticed among the middle class
Salt Lake City European-American families was that the mothers seemed to
organize their interactions around lessons that resemble Assembly Line
Instruction, of course, they’re not a pure form of Assembly Line Instruction but
they seemed to be modeled similarly. And the aspects that we noticed, the Salt
Lake moms used a lot of mock excitement, we think that that was a way to
motivate the children’s involvement. Sweet, look at this, which is not a way
they would have talked to another adult, even if they were very
excited about the offer.>>[LAUGH]
>>But, we think it’d be absurd to call the child’s attention to what the mothers
wanted the child to pay attention to. The center bar here, the Salt Lake moms
often gave vocabulary lessons, and the vocabulary lessons were language used
to focus on language, not to accomplish something else, for example, well in this
case, asking the child to recite numbers. But in many cases,
holding up something and saying, where’s his nose,
or where’s his hat. And the mother knew full well where
the little puppet’s nose was, the little puppet’s hat. So it was a known answer
question that is uncommon outside of school but
it’s common in many school settings for a teacher to ask a question that
she already knows the answer to. And we saw it was common among
the Salt Lake middle class families, not common in San Pedro. The third bar is Praise. The Salt Lake middle class mothers
often praised their children’s involvement That was uncommon
among San Pedro families. So this particular one was at
the stream of AMerican-European moms, she applauded everything to the child,
>>[LAUGH]>>And told the child, sweetie I’m so proud of you. I love you. It was really at one end but she’s only one of the moms in this average here. Most of the the Salt Lake moms or nearly
just all the Salt Lake moms were providing praise for about half of the novel objects
that we had them present the child with. And then finally, the Salt Lake moms sometimes overruled what the child
wanted to do with the object. If the child was insisting
on doing something, the mother sometimes insisted on her
way over the child’s insistence. Or if the child was refusing,
she might insist. That was very uncommon in San Pedro. We think that all of
these are characteristics of the mother seeing
themselves as responsible for providing lessons, and
even insisting on their lessons. This was an example of Non
answered questions but you all know about non-answered questions,
>>Okay. But still,
I bet you’d like to see this one. [MUSIC]>>Grover Cleveland.>>[LAUGH]
>>Theodore Roosevelt.>>William Taft.>>Yeah.>>Warren Harding.>>[LAUGH]>>Woodrow Wilson
>>Who’s this?>>Who’s this?>>Woodrow Wilson, Dwight Eisenhower.>>John Kennedy.>>John Kennedy,
Jimmy Carter, Gerald Ford.>>[LAUGH]
>>Ronald Reagan. [LAUGH]
>>So I hope you can hear the. What’s that, and
[UNKNOWN] replies the child and write in that format of asking an
unanswered question, wait for the answer, and [UNKNOWN] the answer. Probably that kid did
the other day [UNKNOWN].>>[LAUGH]
>>But I bet the kid knew
nothing about presidents.>>[LAUGH]
>>Okay, so what was common in the San Pedro families? The mothers almost always were in
a position ready to help the child. You can see this mother, the child is
kneeling with one of those Russian nesting dolls, too many pieces for
a little toddler to manage. [UNKNOWN] hand volume. What position is she in? She has one hand ready to
catch anything that falls and the other hand holding an object for
the child. I just mentioned that the pattern for
the [UNKNOWN] San Pedro families. Seems to be in line with a lot of learning
[INAUDIBLE] with support from mothers. The mothers also very commonly they’re
attending simultaneously to several things going on at once. So if there were several [INAUDIBLE],
which often [UNKNOWN] like in this case. The toddler needs some help, and the mother is also participating in
adult conversation at the same time. No interruptions from
either event to the other. So no disfluency in what she’s saying in
the conversation with the adults, and no fumbling or
pausing in her help to the child. That kind of simultaneous
attention Was pretty constant when there was more than one [UNKNOWN]
going on, through [UNKNOWN]. And not nearly as common among the Salt
Lake middle class European [UNKNOWN]. And if you look at what
the toddlers were doing, the San Pedro toddlers were also
attending simultaneously multiple events. That was, in fact they were doing so more
often than the Salt Lake mothers were. And the Salt Lake [UNKNOWN] were doing it
correspondingly less than the [UNKNOWN]. We think that’s an effective way of
being on top of whatever you’re doing, as well as being alert to whatever’s going
on around you, in case there’s something Important that you could be learning
from what’s going on in your bayou. And then finally the San Pedro toddlers were generally
involved in group activities. There was always a group present
in the different home visits. The Salt Lake kids,
sometimes were just involved with. Whatever optically were on page 22. So at times we are biotic involvement
with one of the person and we are involving with that
person was partially. So I engage with you for a little way and
start engage [INAUDIBLE] for a little bit so the sequential diodes if they
were pertaining to somebody else at all. Whereas the tend to be
involved with the group as a whole more often
then the sulfate groups. We think all of that characterizes sort
of a an organization of learning in which the kids and the adults or
other children around them are oriented to what’s happening around
them in addition to their own activity. I’ll show you an example
of simultaneous attention. So that you can see it. Hopefully you can see it. You’ll have to be able to
watch two things at once.>>[LAUGH]
>>We brought along some cookies in a little cellophane wrapper. And during the interview,
the toddler is asking the mom to do something with
the with the key reference. So you need to pay attention to
the conversation that occurs largely between the hands. For the mother and the toddler. And the conversation that’s mostly verbal. And with gaze between the mom and
the adults. [BLANK_AUDIO] [FOREIGN] Did you see it? So, no interruptions in that
complex [INAUDIBLE] conversation with their hand and
no interruptions in their several paragraphs of conversation
between the mother and the other adults who were present. [BLANK_AUDIO] Questions or comments? Yeah.>>My first reaction to that is I’ve seen
a lot of mothers and babies do that. Like mothers who are simultaneously
operating, and appeasing, and dealing with their toddler
while having adult conversation. What’s different about this is that. What’s different about this in particular
than instead of what you were seeing in those many others?>>It’s not that a network happens
along the European-American middle class moms that we observed,
is that it just wasn’t as frequent. And it required us to look. I can’t tell when I’m
watching people do it. On the fly. I had to look at the video tape,
backing it up over and over again, to see if there was any
sign of a small pause in direction. So it may be that the difference is in
whether there is little interruptions. What the Salt Lake middle
class moms tended to do was very quick alternation between activities. So there was a very small
introduction to what they were doing. Which might be small enough that
you wouldn’t really notice it when it was just the real-time. But when you look at the videotape and
look back and forth [UNKNOWN] Yes?>>Did you start in [UNKNOWN]? Other cultures as well? And were these the extremes?>>The other two communities that we
included in this study were middle class Turkey, and a tribal community in India. For many of the things that we studied, most of the things are those
graphs that I showed you. The middle class [UNKNOWN] in Turkey and the [UNKNOWN] in
Salt Lake City were similar. And the tribal [UNKNOWN] community
was similar to the Mayan community. But on attention,
there was something else happening For the other two communities, which were
similar, the middle class Turkish and the tribal Indian folks were similar in
the way they coded attentional patterns. And they weren’t like either
the salt lake or the Mayan tribes. I don’t understand it well enough
to know how to characterize. I think there’s three, four,
five, six early patterns, and bar code system didn’t catch what was
happening with those two populations. So that’s on the street for somebody who knows those commands
to try and hop on that one. Yes?
>>I’ve noticed in your footage along with the different type of
footage of the Somalian community that they’re almost always sitting. He was kind of raped in childhood a lot. Facing [UNKNOWN] danger of [UNKNOWN]. Is that something that just
happens naturally in general or because this was the conversation
you were having?.>>It was not something we did. Yeah and it’s common for the children
to be a part of whatever’s going on and facing the group. The child’s facing in the same
direction as the mom but the child’s also facing to
the center of a circle. It’s very common for
the organization to be a circle, and for the child to be facing the circle. And for the middle class European American
kids, the child was more often facing the mom, maybe not even
a part of the group or invitation. Like an appendage of the mom,
rather than as a member of the group. Okay. [BLANK_AUDIO] We followed this up with some
research with some other communities. So this is something not just
in this particular study, but in a number of our studies. We’ve looked at not only this one Mayan
community in Guatemala but we’ve wondered whether the pattern that we’ve observed
there applies to other communities, specifically other indigenous or indigenous heritage communities
of Central and North America. So, we’ve extended it
to look at Mexican and Mexican-American communities
that are likely to have connections with practices of
indigenous communities of Mexico. And what we have found with
our studies of attention, is that the Mexican immigrants, in
the case of this study, but several other studies also, Mexican children who’s
families are likely to have connection with indigenous practices of Mexico
show this kind of simultaneous attention more than Mexican kids whose families
have a lot of Western schooling. And so, we’re using this as a way of
looking at the children’s experience with cultural practices, either close to
indigenous communities practices or close to Western, especially middle class
school-based communities practices. And we’re interested in seeing what
happens when both are together and whether schooling trumps
indigenous communities practices, which seems to often be the case. [BLANK_AUDIO] Okay. Okay, so, in the rest of what
I want to be talking about, I’ll give you some examples
of the next four factors. With research on cultural variation in
learning through keen attention and participation and collaborative community
endeavors with flexible initiative with coordination of shared endeavors
through non-verbal conversation and talk, in order to commute and
belong in the community. So that gives you sort of a preview
of what most of the rest of the prism involves. That contracts with assembly line
instruction where learning is by receiving lesson exercises controlled
by experts with explanations and quizzes out of the context of activity
in order to gain credentials for admission to the adult world. [BLANK_AUDIO] We’ve done reasearch on
each of those facets, and obviously the time doesn’t permit
going into a whole lot on each one. So, the one that I’ve been
talking about most just now is the third facet, learning occurs
in an intent community for its patient, learning occurs by means of keen attention
and contribution, either current or anticipated to unjoined events and
guidance occurs, based on community wide expectations as well as sometimes,
guidance from other people. And that contrasts with several
learning instructions where learning is by means of lessons and exercises out
of the context of productive activity. [BLANK_AUDIO] I’m tempted to skip this one
because we don’t have too long, so that we can get to another facet. Did you see enough about keen attention? [BLANK_AUDIO] I’m so tempted. Okay, we also studied what happens
when kids are in a situation where something interesting
is going on [INAUDIBLE] But they have no obvious reason
to be paying attention. So we set up a situation here,
where a research assistant mother is showing big sister how to
construct a toy that happens to be a toy mouse that runs on a stool and
the little brother is sitting nearby waiting for
a turn to make an origami jumping frog. And he’s told while he waits that
he can play with this object, it’s a do nothing toy that’s
interesting for a minute, but then it’s not so interesting. And we’re interested in
the attention of that child. So, I’ll show you that
the attention of that child.>>[FOREIGN] [BLANK_AUDIO]>>[FOREIGN]
>>So, you would think it’s a still
photograph if you didn’t know.>>[LAUGH]
>>He is really keenly attending. Now this clip here is Sand Ridge middle
class kids in the same situation. And I’ll show you that clip.>>Let’s do this first. [INAUDIBLE]
>>[INAUDIBLE]>>[LAUGH]>>[INAUDIBLE]>>[INAUDIBLE]>>I want to do it.>>Really?>>[INAUDIBLE]
>>So, this little guy glanced over a couple of times but it doesn’t give the
impression that he was trying to figure out anything about what they
were doing but rather seeing. Why weren’t they paying attention
at his clever little iii?>>And
you can see those are not video clips. But you can see the posture of
those selfish kids also but they’re not keenly attending
like the kids in the Mayan clip. And we did this with a number of kids
in the same setup in both communities. And you can see that sustained attention
is twice as common among the traditional Mayan families as among the European
American families with a lot of schooling. Mayan families from
the same community that had a lot of schooling [INAUDIBLE]
between the other two. [BLANK_AUDIO] We also followed up on how
much kids learned from it. I remind, kids from traditional families
learned more from the opportunity to be observing something that
was going on nearby them but there was no obvious reason for
them to need to learn that. And we found a similar pattern with
kids from neither New Mexico or in the United States whose
families were more involved with, presumably more involved with indigenous
practices of Mexico compared with both Mexican kids,
whose families have a lot of. One, and
European heritage kids [INAUDIBLE] school. [BLANK_AUDIO] Okay, I did that fast, but do you have
any questions or comments on that?>>If you have any
[INAUDIBLE] data on whether time in the US starts to change that so that they become more like?>>I don’t, I don’t. It would require teasing
apart amount of schooling, place of schooling, her parents,
and a whole lot of things. But I would suspect that time in
the US well there is not time for [UNKNOWN] exposure to US
middle class institutions. Especially school but
also other institutions. Including for parents. Parenting classes. [UNKNOWN] I think that is a biggy. This [UNKNOWN] it will be interesting
to try to choose a part that the process itself.>>I’d be interested in seeing what
happens when they have children, these children have children
in their [INAUDIBLE]>>Well, in a sense, the Mayan study comes close to
that because both the parents in those families are related to
>>Each other, it’s very full on community. And some of them have had
a lot of schooling and they treat their kids in
a schooling kind of way. And those who haven’t had
much schooling are using what seems to be a more traditional
[INAUDIBLE] pattern. So, I wouldn’t be
surprised if you find that. Okay, so the next facet has to do with the social
organization of the endeavors themselves. This is a little different
than the middle one. This is the organization of the community. The kids are included in
the community [UNKNOWN]. This is the organization of
face-to-face interactions. Where the organization’s collaborative. The lawyer is trusted to
contribute with initiative.>>The leadership is flexible. Everybody adult or child can provide
[UNKNOWN] depending on who knows what. And [UNKNOWN] which will [UNKNOWN] and that contrasts with social
organization [UNKNOWN] in assembly line instruction where this
[UNKNOWN] control and fixed roles. The expert controls pace, the attention,
and the behavior of the learner. The expert’s supposed to transmit
information and [INAUDIBLE] for later. And is not collaborating
in the same endeavor, I think that one is especially important. The learner’s job is to
to receive information. [BLANK_AUDIO] So just as a reminder of the first facet,
the community organization. I think it’s really sensible to
some of them to be talking about, with children being included and
participating in picking the kernel of the corn off the cob carrying,
carrying water from the lake-shore. [BLANK_AUDIO] [INAUDIBLE] playing an important
role just like everybody else. [BLANK_AUDIO] They may have smaller [UNKNOWN] [BLANK_AUDIO] And these two photographs, these two
are from 1941, before I was there. This is from more recently,
I think about 1998. And you can see that although
these have changed a lot in time this is a tourist stand
selling beverages to tourists. But here you can see this kid is playing
an important role in some fabric. This kid can probably run
some important errands. That little one has opportunities
to see how it’s organized, probably not helping out very much. [BLANK_AUDIO] So, one of the things that we’re
particularly interested in is trying to understand
the form of collaboration. We’ve done a number of
studies on collaboration in the different communities. And they’re somewhat
variable in our findings. It seems that what In the indigenous
heritage communities, collaboration is always at least as much
as in the European-American middle class, or Mexican middle class communities. But sometimes it’s equal
amounts of collaboration, but we think it’s organized differently. We found that [BLANK_AUDIO] Women was more collaboration by
the indigenous heritage kids, but it often happens with middle class kids is
they were brought so low or sometimes get distracted when they were the ones who
was in charge of doing this stuff. But we also [INAUDIBLE]. But we also wanted to look at
the form of collaboration. What we are seeing in certain studies is
that children from indigenous heritage, Mexican backgrounds,
are more likely to be blending agendas. Whereas the European heritage kids
often divided up the activity. Your turn, my turn. Or you do this part, I do that part. So that they’re not actually
coordinating as an ensemble. They are, they might be coordinating but
by division, rather than by sharing agendas. And we’re trying to figure
out how to code this. We’ve got some studies
that support the idea, but we would like to get more directly,
code that more directly. But in the meantime,
I’m going to show you a clip there. I think you’ll be able to see
the kind of ensemble movement so these three girls they are constructing
a model B according to a model. So they have all the pieces
here to make that. And so just watch the movements
get a feel for the [BLANK_AUDIO] [INAUDIBLE] [BLANK_AUDIO] You see how they’re kind
of moving together? [BLANK_AUDIO] There have been ethnographic descriptions
in several indigenous communities of adults and children who live together
in that same way, and I think it’s a form of collaboration that would
be really interesting to understand that. [BLANK_AUDIO] Okay, so then the fifth facet has to
do with how communication occurred. In intent community participation
is coordination of, what’s important is coordination
of shared endeavors. It includes a lot of
non-verbal conversation, as well as verbal conversation. As well as dramatization and narratives,
and that contrasts with the form of communication in assembly or
construction, which uses limited formats. Largely limited to explanations out of
the context of ongoing activity but also including quiz questions, don’t answer questions that
we talked about before. To give you an idea of. What I mean by coordination of
shared endeavors with non verbal and verbal conversation. Consider that image from the Mendoza Codex
from almost five centuries ago. The mother is helping
the daughter learn how to weave. They are able to refer to
the ongoing weaving and the mother in that drawing is gesturing. I’m not sure exactly what a gesture means. She’s gesturing. She’s also speaking. So that means scroll. That means scroll coming out of her mouth. And they are able to refer to the activity
itself as a part of their communication. In this situation, actually the same girl
[LAUGH] that became a software engineer.>>[LAUGH]
>>So she’s not mine, she’s mine.>>[LAUGH]
>>And she did not speak Spanish [UNKNOWN] at the time and then Genina did
not speak anything except for>>[UNKNOWN] None the less, Genina was able to teach Lisa to weave, not very well,
I mean she needed a lot more practice. It’s a very complex skill but you can see
Genina gesturing to tell Lisa how hard to pull on the stick that she’s puling
on to move the threads closer together. And a lot can be communicated if there
was not in the context of ongoing activity it would be useless. But the ongoing activity, the fact that
they can refer together to something which is tapped into, something that’s in
front of them, gives them a chance to be using their shared activity
as part of their communication. [UNKNOWN]?>>Barbara, don’t you see correctly in the
codex that the mother’s hands, the left and right hand are exactly the same
position as the daughter’s on the other? I’m not sure I can see it
clearly from back here but it sure looks like the right and
left hand are twisted differently, and they’re parallel-
>>I don’t think so. I think the mother is like this, and the daughter is like this,
but it’s a neat speculation. Yeah, I think her two hands are not
too different than Genina’s hands, but who knows, who knows? [UNKNOWN] So in this last image Maria here has much more information than Lisa. She speaks the language in common
with the people around her. And she can also view them weaving. And she can listen in
on their conversation>>Say somebody says I dropped a thread there. How can I fix it I’ve gone past that area. And somebody says here’s what I do and
gives them a solution. She has a chance to eavesdrop
on their problem solving and watch them weave in addition
to on her own weaving. So much information available from being
present and collaborating on the same. [INAUDIBLE] Which is not possible in
assembly line construction where you’re separated, by definition, separated from
the activity that you’re learning about. [INAUDIBLE]
Sorry. [LAUGH] So the what is the goal of development and education? What if [UNKNOWN] is to
transform the participation in order to contribute along. And that includes learning
consideration and responsibility to be good collaborators, to be able
to coordinate with other people. In addition to the information that skips. And that contrasts with the purpose,
oops, I’m skipping one, I’m skipping two. There it is.
This contrasts with the goal of education is symbol of my instruction. Which is the transmission of
isolated information on skills for certification, which are prerequisite for
inclusion in society. And I just want to mention that what
we said about focusing on process. This is, that contrast is really
important in this compass. With the process of transformation
participation being key in learning to intake communication. Whereas this one is
the transmission of objects. So you didn’t call it objects,
you called it something else.>>[INAUDIBLE]
>>Substances. And So that’s focused on process. This is focused on acquisition
of objects or substances. Uh-huh?>>What’s striking to me
about the slide though, is that when I ask the people with
whom I work what are their goals for education, they sound much more
like what you’re saying up here. Yet there’s this huge mismatch, obviously, between what we do and
we say we want to do. So I mean, that’s finished.>>I think that the teachers that
you ask probably have goals for their kids’ education that are different
than some [UNKNOWN] instructors?>>That’s right, yeah.>>And so the bureaucracy tries to
force smart people, like your teachers, into assembly line instruction,
but they have other ideas. So, it’s partly the difference
between scolding and [UNKNOWN].>>I guess my point is this goal that
you’ve identified, this underlying instruction, is an emergent property
of assembly line instruction, not an explicit goal ahead
of time necessarily. I mean it’s both I guess, but
the way it works out in our school is there is this mismatch I think
between what we know intuitively is sort of the right thing to be doing versus
what is the efficient thing, [INAUDIBLE].>>Yeah, this is a bureaucratical-
>>Yeah. Whereas teachers are human beings with no
children and they engage with children.>>Yes.>>The assembly line instruction
model it does not map on to what lots of teachers do or
want to do. It’s. Yeah.
>>To do about that comment. And recognize that these practices
have cultural foundations. It just occurred to me that a lot of the
kind of instruction that you’re describing would be characteristic of high quality
early childhood education program. And then a lot of the things
you’re describing [INAUDIBLE].>>And graduate school.>>[LAUGH]
>>When it’s high quality.>>Yes, both.>>So it makes me wonder if we’re
talking about these different models being so seamlessly worked into cultures, or rather being in part
a function of the institutions? That relate to this case to education.>>I wouldn’t separate
institutions from coaching. Right, but if they have a high-quality
early education program it would be very different from what things look
like in K12 within the same culture, and even the same community. Then there’s something
that’s making that happen.>>Well bureaucracy, [LAUGH] I think that we all learn very well [UNKNOWN]. That it’s common in the Mayan community
and in some other indigenous communities, giving us a chance to
observe it when practiced. And it is less common once you
segregate the kids away from being able to be included In situations where
important things are happening. So, I think I underlined the,
our cultures include institutions. They’re not separate from institutions. I think that may help us make sense of it. The institution of schooling though, most of us have spent
quite a bit of time there. Most of us even have parents and maybe even grandparents who
spent a lot of time there. It’s our default idea for learning a curse
for many of, not all of us, but for many of us. So, when we’re trying to [INAUDIBLE]
program such and such, and we think about how are we
going to structure it. It’s our default. It’s the way that we think
it’s supposed to be. Somebody was mentioning, one of
the graduate students was saying that it was very hard for the parents to allow for a new method to be used in the kids
school, and I forget the specifics of it.>>About estimating.>>About estimating. The kids were being taught to estimate and
the parents said, but they need to get the right answers. I think it’s what they were saying. I remember, my kids were in the same
thing in public elementary school. My firstborn, in first grade. Is she going to learn to read? She’s not filling out
any mimeographed sheets.>>[LAUGH]
>>So there’s this, we carry it with us in our
cultural practices that also connect with the institutions
that we engage in. I saw a hand over this way. Yeah?>>In thinking of like how
the indigenous Mayan community and where the kids grow in the community,
stay in the community, continue in the community versus our
kids where we want them to go out and do great things that we would
have never thought of and live these lives that we can only envision
>>And how does that match up, then,
with this type of learning when we don’t have that leaning going on
around us, we’re learning [UNKNOWN]?>>That’s a tricky question,
because I think it’s fair to say that the cultural change for
the Mayan families is at least as great.>>As for the middle class
European American families. And many of those Mayan kids
are in Los Angeles, and Houston, and Boston, and Santa Cruz,
and maybe even Davis. And one of them for
example is [INAUDIBLE] you’ve seen in referenced in some of this work. The kinds of ways of
structuring teaching and learning he continues to practice
while he also is very skilled. Associate Professor in
the University of New Hampshire. He was in the first study [INAUDIBLE]
It’s not quite simple as that question,
although there’s something to it. But we are trying to. Many people are thinking that they don’t
have any idea of where their children are going so that they
>>Sort of general skills, but we all know, well I hope you all know,
schooling does not provide general skills. A lot of research shows that it doesn’t
generalize any more than anything else, and sometimes less. So, and the other thing that’s
really interesting is how is it that kids of academics
>>Talk more academic.>>[LAUGH]
>>And musician’s kids somehow seem to have music in their blood and so do,
I mean, everything you can think of. I mean, it’s not like [UNKNOWN] but chances are there’s something
carried in what they are mining. So my child I don’t know if she’s going to
be a computer programmer or a professor or a but she knows how to do professing. because she’s lived through and
we’ve seen little babies going [SOUND].>>[LAUGH]
>>But note the intonation giving a lecture
you don’t know word to get. Okay we are probably getting
close to finishing of but let me see what I have to talk about. Briefly In terms of goals of education being to learn to be a
responsible, considerate collaborator that would include taking initiative as you can
see with this little girl Bella who is learning how to clean the table and
this little girl Dora who’s washing dishes we’ve done several studies now of
kids helping out around the house in indigenous or
indigenous heritage communities, comparing with middle class communities,
both in Mexico and the US. And the children in the indigenous
heritage communities help a lot more. In more complex things, and
they are much more common. They do it under their own initiative. They pitch it because
everybody’s pitching in. This is just what you
do as part of a family. Something’s dirty, you clean it. Something needs picked up, you pick it up. Whereas in the middle class families,
there’s a lot more parental reports of needing to
provide inducements a little contact to get the kid
to even do the thing. That is the [UNKNOWN] made. And very much involved
in it in doing things that are [UNKNOWN]
families household good. So initiative is an important part of the,
what they’re learning and they’re supported in learning. Also the idea of [FOREIGN]. And some of you know the term [FOREIGN]? It doesn’t translate to respect. It’s more like considerations. And it’s consideration for the direction
of the group, it’s not like respect for authority, it’s consideration for
the direction of the group. And there are non verbal communication
that I mentioned in a earlier facet. I think it’s an important Que of
being able to be considerate for the direction of the group, so that you
don’t interrupt what’s [UNKNOWN] and [UNKNOWN] who’s one of my grad students,
did this study, looking at [UNKNOWN] in European,
American, and Mexican, heritage kids. I’ll just show you this really quick. [BLANK_AUDIO] He needs some help from
>>This is the same study that I mentioned earlier where
they’re folding origami figures. And she is following a script that
restricts her help to the child. She has given him the materials and said, this is in the part of the study where we
tested to see how much they have learned, and so, she was following a script
on how much she would help and, she was supposed to pause before
she helped him at all requiring, encouraging the kids to do
it themselves if they could. And so she says, here’s the materials. I have something that
I need to be reading. Let me know if you need any help though. And so he let her know. And she actually knew, but
she was pausing on purpose to not help. But he wasn’t interacting
with what she was doing. He was checking in,
aware of what her activities were. And I think that that’s an important part
of respectfulness, the consideration for the direction of the group. Making sure that your own activities
are not interrupting other people’s activities. Yes.>>Were any similar situations
conducted with a child? Or peer-to-peer versus just a child and somebody he may view as
an authority figure?>>Not specifically
focused on this [UNKNOWN]. But that image that I showed you of
those three girls constructing the bee, it’s the same thing. They were taking into account each other’s
efforts in order to coordinate the way or I think, I don’t have to do that but,
I think so.>>So this one peer seeing here a kind of an artifact that’s
[INAUDIBLE] tradition and majority, where majority is.>>Serve modeled after
an industrial record and a post industrial society,
conceptually modern?>>I wouldn’t consider that an artifact. I think that, if we think in
terms of cultural practices, the industrial,
modernity thing is a part of what school, the assembly instructions is moder after. But, I think maybe it’s
important to point out this. I’ve been trying to be careful
not to generalize to all traditional peoples in talking
about the research with. Indigenous heritage folks of Mexico,
Guatemala, and North America. I don’t know what we would find if we
looked at indigenous populations in other parts of the world, or quotes traditional
populations in other parts of the world. I think there would be some similarities
with what I’m describing here, but also some differences. So I don’t think it’s a dichotomy between
traditional folks and modern folks, I think that we’ve got modernity or
industrial, whatever you want to call it, that’s a specific kind of
cultural set of practices. And then you have become
a number of other ones. Like, your earlier questions about,
that let me talk about the Turkish and Indian families, the intentional pattern
there were two patterns that we could identify and understand. But there were some others in there,
that we don’t understand yet. There’s probably six or eight or
twelve patterns of being not western, whatever we called them
>>Look at Turkey, if you look at also Turks.>>In wrenching away from the tradition
authority, the western alphabet and all of the certain things. I mean, that my following it,
am I giving reason, I didn’t see that Turkey following along
the so called modern path on this.>>I think the view that everybody who has
lots of questions looming is in culture related western ways.>>And it’s part of their
center cultural practices. But I should think, we’re not in
each one of us follows more than one cultural set of cultural practices. We are all a mix of cultural practices. And I think that,
some of the Miami kids who grow up and come to the United States are very
skilled in living in two worlds, and so are many,
many other people who are immigrants or whose families deal with
several cultural systems. And I think that that’s the ideal
actually is not that the my ways should be a model or the,
you know I do not think [UNKNOWN]. I don’t mind instructions
>>I don’t want to be [UNKNOWN]>>[LAUGH]>>But I think that there’s a number of ways that we can do things. We all need to know how do deal
with assembly line instruction. So we need to know how to use those
practices, even if they’re not good for our learning. So knowing how to do things more
than one way, I think is crucial. [BLANK_AUDIO] So who’s in charge of
getting me a shot up here?>>Nobody. [BLANK_AUDIO]
>>Herald.>>Maybe it’s time for
one more question, or two.>>Okay.>>I do have a couple of,
I can show you the>>We certainly haven’t got time.>>Or, I can show you this clip, and
everyone likes clips, it’s not long. This is a [UNKNOWN] clip and
nonverbal conversation. And you can see those girls accomplishing
a lot and avoiding interrupting the research assistant, who is taking
a break from instructing them. Saying, I have something
I need to write here. And so, you watch those girls
communication with each other. In ways that don’t interrupt the direction
of each of the members of group. [BLANK_AUDIO]>>[LAUGH]
>>So what you saw in the end there, I think, is this girl being quite
alert to the camera operator also. So they are alert to every thing
that’s going on around them. Communicating, there was one or two
words spoken during that whole thing and a lot of communication. A lot of working together
with consideration for the work that she said
that she’s needing to do. But at the same time they’re getting
things done that she said they should proceed to make the next folder and
configures. Well as very skilled number of medication, I’ll just end with telling you
what this [UNKNOWN] best it is, we haven’t been studying it per say but
it’s about assessment, I think it’s. It’s crucial, but it’s not something
that we spend much research on. And what is your technique in
participation that assessment is, progress as well of the support
provided to [UNKNOWN]. It’s done to eight contributions and it’s done during the endeavor
direct feedback from the outcome or the acceptance of the efforts, or
correction of the efforts by other people. And that contrasts with assessment
in the assembly line construction, which is done to sort the test of orders. It’s separate from the learning concept, the feedback is in direct [UNKNOWN] or
ranking. The reason why I think this facet is so
important because, this has such power. And if the assessment is done in a way
that fits with assembly line instruction, I think it holds whatever
innovative approach, pulls it back to a someone else and I think that so
it’s key to changing things, I think the way we could get
some purchase on that is by including children’s motivation
Initiative as part of what gets assessed. And then it would have
to open things up so that the first one looks
at whether kids read, not just how good they can march
through some multiple choice question. And teachers would be encouraged to
give children chances to read, and what the find things that the kids
are interested in reading and so on. So that could help. I’m going to just go to a slide that [INAUDIBLE]
>>[LAUGH]>>That I think we all can benefit from learning [INAUDIBLE] Taking advantage
of observation and collaboration. Some of you have chuckled,
recognizing that this is [UNKNOWN]. You might not have recognized that this
is [UNKNOWN], they’re in Kyoto Japan. And [UNKNOWN] is trying to learn to
do things [UNKNOWN] [UNKNOWN] through collaboration and observation. [BLANK_AUDIO]>>[LAUGH]
>>But it sometimes takes practice, as well as a shift in approaches to
expand our repertoires of practice. The process is not just of assimilation,
but also accommodation. So, all include that at the end of class
if we have time for another question.>>I have a question.>>Okay yes.>>I’m working with
a group that [UNKNOWN] and teachers with the root stick
population in California. And I was thinking,
you mentioned a couple articles and you were working with some California
indigenous based populations. What populations are you working with?>>So most of what we’ve done. Is most, in Santa Cruz area, until
recently, most of the Mexican immigrant population comes from around Bolivia and
[UNKNOWN]. And the one,
the folks who come from that area who have very little western schooling. We’re making the inference that
they have a more connection with indigenous practices. Basing that on historical
documents about a century ago, Mexico tried to make
Indians into [UNKNOWN]. And a lot of the indigenous
practices It’s the same populations. A lot of the indigenous practices
were maintained even though people don’t claim to be
indigenous at this point. More recently, there’s mystical folks and
other folks from Southern Mexico coming to the Santa Cruz area and
we’re interested in working with some. There is a mystical Graduate
student in our program, if you want to get in contact,
her name is Liz Gonzales, she’s fantastic. Liz Gonzales, I can give you her email.>>Okay.
>>Her email address afterwards, she’s fantastic. Was there another question. [BLANK_AUDIO] Okay, well thank you very much.>>[APPLAUSE]
>>I want to first of all thank you all for coming and I want to thank Dr. Rowba
>>[INAUDIBLE]>>Yeah so we’ve known each other a long time.>>Since we were teenagers.>>Since we were teenagers but no but.>>[LAUGH]
>>For a long time and we’re still only 40 years old,
and I remember when I was.>>This, and this professor and
Martha’s books came out. And how what a stir-
>>you’re making me sound old.>>[LAUGH]
>>No, I’m just. What a stir it caused in the field,
and brought a lot of tension to her work and to cultural
practices that she’s talked about today. So. I, she doesn’t know this but
she was an intellectual mentor for me in my own work and still inspires me
and you by the audience here all of you. I’m going to leave,
I’m going to give her a little gift but I wanted to leave her with a question that
she won’t have time to answer Right now. But it strikes me as being curious. [LAUGH] So you were careful Barbara to
talk about assembly line instruction and you were careful to say
well it’s not really, your job is not meant to be characteristic
but that’s the way it is on school. But we’re all thinking that and I know that as you’re talking,
you sort of start to shade off. And the school practices in
the United States and the western culture. And I started thinking, I know that a lot
of people in this room, my colleagues and our students here are not to happy with
the kind of structure that happens in school and bureaucracy that clearly and
then the other thing leads to it and the whole assessment system and the whole
[UNKNOWN] However, there are increasing interests, we all know,
in things like hands on science. The new,
next generation science standards. Which are really kind of reorganized
the way we teach and also learn and think about science. And Common Core and a high order
thinking skills that that’s part of. A lot of us are interested in
project-based learning, and in collaborative and peer learning. And we talk a lot about,
and we’ll somehow, I think, part of the new testing regiment that’s
coming out, formative assessment. So my question to you, Barbara, is,
are we at last and finally going Mayan?>>[LAUGH]
>>I think we’re trying to keep doing lampoon.>>[LAUGH]
>>doings lampoon right?>>No I think that you said is that me and
you, right?>>No.>>So it’s a matter of-
>>New terms>>In terms and have trying to understand it. I don’t think were the same as he was but
I think was trying to do a lot of.>>Maybe doing as mine.>>And it’s actually do it some time and indigenous communities of Mexico and
those inspire about. In 1912 I don’t know Bingo.>>Bingo. [LAUGH]
>>[LAUGH] There was the unwritten story of [UNKNOWN].>>[LAUGH]
>>So I, this is a sort of tradition here. Barbara thought it was mine
when she saw me bring it.>>I thought it was a small in out.>>[LAUGH]
>>So, it’s fine. So we’re famous for three things at Dick. Many things, but, and
it’s quite a package wine, education, and olive oil.>>[LAUGH] [APPLAUSE] [BLANK_AUDIO]

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